​At that point, San Francisco was really known for its murals and street art. So I got really into that. And then I realized that the only way to make money on it is to do commissions. And when you do commissions, you're doing what other people want you to do, right? And I would have this portfolio, and I would show people: here's some of what I can do. What are your ideas?

​​

They'd be like, paint that (pointing), and then you'd be repeating the same thing over and over again. As a creative person who likes change, I cannot do the same thing over and over again.

​

So I kind of got burned on that, too. And then I had my son. 

 

I think when I decided to start a family, I was like, I don't really want to be a dog walker. I miss students, but I don't want to grade ever again.

 

So what can I do? When he was little, I would take him to the library all the time. And I was like, oh my gosh, the bookmobile changed my life. I could be that person who changes lives through story and all of that.

 

And then I was like, okay, this is it. So  I went and got my master's of library science when he was a toddler.

​

Davina: I think being an artist who likes change is pretty good! Someone said the worst thing an artist can do is become complacent. And you're definitely not complacent. 

 

Ms. Lee: That's what I told myself, actually, in school. I mean, I love being around young people. I love being around big ideas and pursuing passions. But I saw older teachers, and I was like, when I get to the point when I'm burnt out and it's not pleasing me and it's not exciting anymore, it's time to go.

 

I'll never be like the burnt-out teacher just working for the paycheck. And I'm kind of starting to feel that in this, where I'm a school librarian. 

 

Davina: It's been a long time, right? 

 

Me Lee: It's been 12 years!  I'm like, okay, I think I'm ready for something else. I don't ever want to be complacent.

 

Davina: So, as your library student, none of us knew that you were going to get a master's degree and leave the school. And obviously, there's work-life separation, and that's good. But I'm just wondering: do you feel like these two parts of your life work together, or are they very different and very separate? 

 

Ms. Lee: Very astute question (laughter). 

 

It's interesting. I think when my son came along and I went the library route, I saw it as very separate, and I put art away for a really long time. It felt like… I don't know, I think I have this idea that if you're not the best at something, why pursue it? Artists hone their craft every day. That's the thing that they do. In my mind, I couldn't call myself an artist if I weren't doing art every day. And I couldn't do that with a kid and a job and all this stuff.

 

And so I kind of shoved it away and didn't think about it for a long time, but it's always in there. And it wasn't until my son's — he’s now 14 — when he was about 12, when I first moved here, that I had this need to make art again.

 

I think it's because he's more independent now, and my brain has freed up space previously taken up by making sure he survives. So, finally, I was like, oh, I miss it. And art isn't… capital A , you have to make Real Art, you know. If it's something I love, I let myself do it.

 

And I was talking to Ms. Lin (our creative writing teacher) who really inspired me to pursue it again in earnest. We had this conversation, and I actually cried talking to her. I was just admitting out loud that I wanted to pursue this. And she was like, you should listen to that.

 

I was like, I should. So I credit Ms. Lin with re-inspiring me to pursue it. 

 

Davina: Ms. Lin is all of our creative Yodas. 

 

Ms. Lee: (Laughter) Right. Yeah. She's amazing.

 

Davina: So is that urge what prompted you to look for this master's program and join it, or was it something else? 

 

Ms. Lee: Yeah.  In my next phase of life and my next career, I am hoping to find a way to meld the creative with my love of being a librarian. I love being around books and all of this, but I feel like here I'm seen as a citation machine. That's not at all what gets my juices flowing. 

 

I am hoping that with an MFA, there's a whole field of comics librarianship.  Universities have comics collections where they're acquiring comics, and they bring in comics artists. 

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Davina: Would you bounce between different universities?

 

Ms. Lee: Some universities have a whole collection, where you're just building it in the library of that university. 

 

I could also be a graphic novel reviewer for trade journals for librarians and things like that, too.

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Davina: Out of curiosity, do you research and apply for these master's degrees, or do they invite you?

 

Ms. Lee: I researched and looked around for different opportunities. I was very limited because I still have a full-time job, a kid, and a family. If you were more open and free to go anywhere, there are lots of different programs to choose from. But because I had a family and a job and all these constraints, I had to find a low-residency program.

 

It turns out that in my very own hometown of San Francisco, a mile away from where I used to live, there is a really great college called the California College of Arts. They have an MFA program in comics, low residency. It's three summers and two school years. You only have to be on campus for the summer part of that. And so it worked out perfectly with my life and my schedule. I'm going to go home to San Francisco anyway every summer.

 

It just felt like the stars were aligning! Some of my favorite comics artists teach there, and they're amazing. So I got really excited about it, applied, put together a portfolio, and got interviewed. 

 

Davina: Ugh, the college application process never ends.

 

Ms. Lee: I know! I went through it all over again. And got in! It's been the best year ever just doing this stuff. I'm so excited. Because it went so well, I wanted to take next year off to really give it my all. 

 

Davina: That's awesome! 

 

What are some of the biggest challenges you faced when pursuing this decision, and how did you overcome them? 

 

Ms. Lee: I mean, there's the external and internal battles. 

 

So externally, I mean, it's finance. It's making that tough decision of like, is this something that we want to put our limited resources into when my son is about to go to college in four years? Is this wise financially? 

 

And then internally, just that battle of imposter syndrome. Am I even capable of what I want to achieve? Can I really do this? Am I an artist? 

 

So that took a lot of grappling with myself, my inner demons. (Laughter) And my husband of like… You know, is he supportive of this? And fortunately, he is amazingly supportive. My son, too, when I was applying and he saw where I was going, he was like, Can you just wait and we can go together? (Laughter)

​

So I've had a lot of support, and I'm actually feeling more and more — I mean, of course, on that first day, stepping back onto a campus, I was petrified. But it's been the best decision I've ever made. Like, it's so cool.

​

Davina: Out of curiosity, because I take theater courses and writing courses, and whenever I'm in a class with a bunch of people younger than me or even older than me, it's like, why are you younger than me and still so successful? Do you get a similar or even more heightened feeling in a master's program since the age ranges so drastically? 

​

Ms. Lee: Yeah. I mean, that was my huge fear. I was like, how can I be in this room with these youngsters who are more talented and already more accomplished, like, oh my gosh, how can I do this? 

​

So that's one of the most surprising things about the program for me. Because I know in the fine arts scene, there was a lot of toxic competition and people trying to one-up each other and just being really cutthroat, right? 

 

Davina: Yeah. 

 

Ms. Lee: There is not an ounce of that in my program. It's amazing. Everyone is so unique and so different, and we all are rooting for each other and being each other's biggest fans. That's been the coolest thing about the program: that feeling of not being good enough is gone.

 

Well, I still battle with it, but it's not from the other people in the program. 

 

Davina: Is there a way to predict that, or is it a leap of faith? 

 

Ms. Lee: So I asked a lot of questions in the interview to see if this was the right school for me. Because when I had pursued it a little bit in my twenties, in the Bay Area scene, when I was 22/23 and trying to get into some comics anthologies, it was still a little bit toxic. It was a lot of bros, you know, these comics guys that were cooler than thou. And women were still not very respected in the field. It was a lot. 

 

So that's kind of what I anticipated, going in, like these dudes that were just, "Whatever, like you got the chops to be here?"

 

And it is the coolest program ever. Almost everyone in it is queer, and they're the most accepting, wonderful people in the world. 

 

You know, comics are queer. I think just the whole vibe of that changes that whole bro scene. 

​

And so this school is led by the most fabulous, oh my gosh --- comics dad, that’s what we call Justin Hall, who wrote a comics history called No Straight Lines about the queer history of comics. And he's just the most inclusive, wonderful human on the planet. He creates this really safe environment. And so when I interviewed with him, I was like, okay, this is going to be a cool place to be.

​

Davina: You pursued art when you were younger. Do you think that if you kept going with that, it would be easier? Would it be different?

 

Ms. Lee: Sometimes I kick myself because when I went to that first comic con in San Francisco — it was called the Alternative Press Expo — it doesn't exist anymore, but it was this really small, cool thing. Like all these people putting out their self-published and their zines and their stuff like that. 

 

Davina: Do you know who was there?

 

Ms. Lee: Raina Telgemeier, Ji-Hoon Yang. All these people just started at the same time that I was, right? And they just (explosion sound) blew up, and I'm like, if I had kept going, could that be my life?

 

And I can't…  I don't think I had the confidence. I wasn't ready.

 

Davina: And like, how could you know?

 

Ms. Lee: Yeah, totally. But I had started to put myself out there, and I tried to publish. Back then, I was thinking of more children's books. And I had put together a portfolio and visited a couple of publishers in New York, and I got really good feedback, but no immediate yeses. Now that I've done my research and lived long enough, I know you have to rack up those rejections before you ever get a yes.

 

But then, in my little… I just didn't have the confidence or the grit or the resilience to believe in myself enough to go back. And I mean, some of these were like handwritten feedback that said, "This is good. Do this, this, this, and we'll re-look at it."

 

And I was like, "They don't like it!" And I just gave up, I literally just gave up because I didn't have that belief. I was like, "Oh, I suck."

​

And now I'm like… I have wanted to do this thing for so long. I have the inner strength now. 

 

Davina: Yeah, you have the mental fortitude.

 

Ms. Lee: Exactly. So I can rack up those rejections. Someone, um, I mean, you were mentioning that you've had…

 

Davina: (Laughter) Yeah, I was looking at my Submittable. It's like decline, decline, decline, decline, decline. I'm like, (jokingly) I'm not a real writer.

 

Ms. Lee: No, you are! You rack those up. And that is, I feel like it's the true sign of somebody who's doing the work.

 

It's unfortunate, I think I avoided it for so long because in every area of my life, I got what I wanted easily. I've gotten every job I've applied for.

 

Davina: Oh wow.

 

Ms. Lee: I'm really good at things, in general, right?

 

Davina: I mean, I agree.

 

Ms. Lee: I mean, not to brag on myself, but I think when I hit that wall… because I'd done really well in school, and I just thought this was going to be something I just decided to do, it would happen. It was like, Oh, this is hard. I don't like rejection. That's not a comfortable feeling. 

 

And now, the more I talk to artists, this is… You have to have a thick skin. You have to be willing to just hear no, no, no, no, no, and not take it personally.

 

You can’t not believe in yourself because maybe it doesn't fit that theme for that month, or they're looking for a specific… You know. It's not a reflection on your worth, right? Someone said to aim for like 20 rejections a year.

 

Davina: Yeah. I think you mentioned before that it was hard to figure out finances and family. Do you have some tips on how to balance your work and your life, and your family?

 

Ms. Lee: (Laughter) Well, talk to me next year.

 

Davina: Okay.

 

Ms. Lee: I'm a starving artist. Um, no, I think having a supportive partner… It's huge, right? Just knowing that. I’ve always had this complex… like I’m really strong, I'm going to do everything myself. I won't rely on anybody else. 

 

We've been married for 20 years, and we have carried each other through different parts. Just knowing that I could take this time to rely on somebody else for a little bit while I do this thing, and them knowing that I will return to carrying my weight again soon.

 

Davina: So, a support system is really important. Like with Ms. Lin and the people at your graduate school and family. 

 

Ms. Lee: I think even with the mental fortitude that I had in my twenties, I would probably still have given up already without Ms. Lin and my husband, and my friends. Because my inner critic is really strong, right? It's been about learning how to pipe that down. Shut up, let me do my thing. And, um, friends definitely help with that. Therapy helps, too. 

 

Davina: I read this article about Paul Cezanne a few years ago. It mentioned that his support system was really crucial to his success. Like his friends would pose for his portraits for hours, and they would fall asleep, and he would, like, wake them up.

 

Ms. Lee: Yes. I think, I mean, if we looked behind a lot of the great artists, people were helping them along the way. I mean, did you hear that Thoreau, when he wrote Walden, his mom was bringing him lunch every day.

 

Davina: He was the one who was isolated in a cabin in the woods? 

 

Ms. Lee: Totally. The idea of this lone wolf doing it by themselves is something we need to come back from.

 

Davina: I think you've already talked a lot about your master's degree, but could you reiterate the most rewarding parts of the program? Things you didn't expect to learn, and how it helped you connect with other artists or open up new opportunities for you?

 

Ms. Lee: Absolutely. That was one of the questions I asked Ms. Lin because she has an MFA. 

 

I was like, is it worth it? Or is it the most expensive, useless piece of paper?

 

And she said it was all about the connections. And obviously, the time dedicated to your craft, but also who you become, who you meet, and who becomes your circle. 

 

And that has been world-changing for me. I also chose this program because one of my heroes in the field works there. Her name's Thi Bui. She wrote this book called The Best We Can Do about her family's immigration from Vietnam to the States after the Vietnam War. She's phenomenal. 

 

And she was my mentor this year! And I'm just like, oh my God, I'm working with my hero. 

 

We just finished our semester together, and I'm going to a conference this summer where she'll be getting presented with an award. And she was like, let's hang out after.

 

I was like, I would die. Oh my God. Oh my God. 

 

So this is what it gets you, right? You become peers with people who were like magical beings before.

 

Davina: Right.

 

Ms. Lee: It's phenomenal.

 

Davina: I mentioned to you before that I was applying to a summer writing workshop. And one of the teachers there is called Andrew Gretes. I've been reading his short stories for a long time. I don't understand any of them because he's really smart and I'm not, but anyway, I emailed the head of the program, like, Hey, could I get recordings of his seminars? I can't attend them because the time difference is too insane.

 

And he was like, Oh, I can ask him to mentor you one-on-one.

 

I was like, oh yeah, sure. Like I wasn't dying inside.

 

Ms. Lee: Oh my gosh, right. And just putting yourself out there. I feel like the universe just starts to open doors, right? It's like, oh, you want this. All right. Let's make it happen. Oh, that's exciting.

 

Davina: Yeah.

 

Is there any advice you would give to a younger self, or alternatively, is there any advice you would give to another adult who is thinking, should I go into the arts, or should I not? You know, is this the most expensive piece of paper I'll ever purchase in my entire life?

 

Ms. Lee: Oh my gosh. I've been waffling. Like, oh my gosh, am I making a mistake? I'm letting go of the safety of this… this is a nice job, am I crazy to let go of this really nice job?

 

And when I tell people what I'm doing, I see jealousy in their eyes, right? Like, you can do that?

 

And I'm like, you can do this! I think a lot of people are afraid to take a leap into the unknown when there's safety. They call it the golden handcuffs when you're too comfortable.

 

So I would say let loose your golden handcuffs and go for it. Because I honestly feel more alive than I've felt in a long time.

 

Davina: That's awesome.